I recently appeared on a podcast called The Optimist hosted by Jake Hurwitz. I get asked to be on podcasts all the time and have really been laser focused on building this new chapter of my career, so i’ve said no to any asks almost 10/10 times. I felt honored though that I was going to be his first ever female guest, so I said yes.
Jake asked me to come on and talk about the support group I founded: Heart Broken Anonymous® specifically as it relates to men and heartbreak. The title of the episode is The Hidden Cost of Heartbreak & Loneliness: How It Affects Your Mind, Body, and Life, with Naz Perez.
I discussed many things i’ve seen first-hand over the years: the increase of the epidemic of loneliness rise, men coming to meetings because their friends can’t hold space for their feelings, and a lot of men who simply just don’t have many or if any friends to talk to about hard stuff. Recent studies show that 27% of men report having 6 friends or more, which is a significant drop from what it used to be in 1995: 55%!
I’ve heard many stories of heartbreak over the years when I used to moderate the HBA meetings, and I remember a lot of hetero men coming up to me and thanking me for creating a non-judgmental, anonymous space where they could come and cry and have the space to feel and feel seen.
During the episode, Jake asked me about dating, and advice I had for anyone when it comes to dating and relating to men.
I shared a tip I learned in a book my coach made me read years ago that completely changed my life because it fundamentally changed my understanding of men, and how they work. The book is called The Queens Code by Alison Armstrong.
I told Jake that growing up, I felt like men in my family were constantly cut off by the women in my life. So when i’m on dates with a man, after he’s done speaking, I’ll wait 20 seconds before responding.
Here’s a link to the clip, it has almost 1 Million views.
I never anticipated that that clip would have gone viral, or that it would have split my little corner of the internet in half.
In the comments I found a lot of women feeling like it and I was anti-feminist.
Whereas, a lot of men were feeling really seen and heard and loving the post.
The rest of the people who engaged just seemed confused.
Before I explain how this all felt for me internally, I want to share more about why Alison Armstrong teaches this practice in her book to give you some more context:
Alison Armstrong suggests women counting to 20 in their head after asking a man a question because men and women process communication differently, especially under stress or when being asked to reflect.
Here’s her core reasoning, based on years of studying male-female dynamics:
The Male Brain Often Requires More Time to Respond
Men tend to be more single-focused than women, which means if you interrupt their thought process or don’t give them time, they might shut down or go blank.
When you ask a man a question—especially a reflective or emotional one—he might go silent not because he’s avoiding the question, but because he’s truly thinking.
If a woman jumps in too fast to fill the silence, it short-circuits his response and teaches him it's not safe or worth it to share.
Why 20 Seconds?
It’s long enough to feel uncomfortable but short enough to give a man the space to access a deeper answer.
Armstrong says that patience leads to insight—some of the best things men have to say come after that pause.
What She’s Really Teaching:
It’s not about manipulation—it’s about understanding masculine communication rhythms and giving space for genuine connection.
It’s also a practice in feminine receptivity—creating a container for the masculine to show up.
I found when I implemented this practice - not just with men on dates - but really with everybody and in interviews for work, I tended to get such deep, reflective, beautiful responses with whomever i’m talking to.
I’m so used to jumping in when i’m excited about something, especially when I’m talking to friends, and this is something i’m not really great at yet but am constantly aware of and am working on.
and by the way I don’t actually “count” to 20, I more so “wait” like 20 seconds and ballpark it. it’s all about feeling out the vibe and body language in the moment.
But what came as a shock to me, was the fact that me waiting and giving a man time to respond in a conversation was controversial?
A lot of people in the comments started calling me a “pick me” girl. A "pick me girl" is a term (often used pejoratively online) to describe a woman who seeks male validation by putting down other women or emphasizing how she's "not like other girls."
Other people thought what I was saying was dangerous in terms of women getting ahead in society.
I forgot that the internet isn’t great at holding nuance. Just because someone does one thing, it does not mean that’s their whole identity. I mean, in no way would I ever identify with being an anti-feminist. I fucking love women and being a woman. obvi? at least I thought it was obvious.
I don’t really read comments ever, but since I was tagged in so many, I ended up reading a lot of them. I didn’t respond to any except for one, and to be honest I love creating discourse. I’m a cultural conversationalist. It felt like a conversation that needed to be had between people and something for all of us to think about really. where ever it is you stand on the issue. I’m not trying to persuade you one way or another by writing this post. it’s quite nice to agree to disagree sometimes. just wanted to share my thoughts on all of it.
I really don’t mind being misunderstood, and i’m completely ok with people not liking me (i’ve found that that is true freedom).
And yet, when I thought about how the post was so triggering for so many women (not all, but many), I couldn’t help but wonder so many things:
when did hating men become the new self-love?
is pausing for a man now a public offense?
did I break the sisterhood… or just the algorithm?
are we healing from heartbreak, or just handing out hit lists?
are we empowered by equality or addicted to dominance?
and are we so busy being empowered, we forgot how to connect?
I couldn’t help but wonder… was I a “pick me” girl, or just a woman who doesn’t hate men today?
when did being polite become political?
Thanks for this thoughtful reflection Naz. It’s definitely funny to see what videos go viral since it’s never expected.
I think what happens sometimes is that as the system of the patriarchy (not individual men) grows, people are mad at men for continuously not doing better. And then it becomes hard to have compassion. Even though we should have compassion for all humans. And giving men time to speak is so counterintuitive in many places where women and girls literally don’t have a voice. Your post was totally fine (or the podcast clip) but it certainly became a big deal because people project onto you that you are giving men something that they don’t deserve or not upholding the idea that women should take up space. You are well within your right to give a man space, especially when he may be struggling to. Men take up a lot of space, but perhaps not in the same ways women can and do. Such as emotional vulnerability, crying with friends, saying what they are deeply feeling at the moment. It’s nice that you practice giving them room to do so.
Sometimes people feel better when you post and have the caveat “I do recognize etc etc…” but you don’t always have to do that. Those who understand the message will, and people will take from it what they want at the end of the day.
This is great!